Philip Johnson Interview (page: 3 / 4) Dean of American Architects	Print Interview

What building are you most proud of?

Philip Johnson: I don't know.

I know the ones that are the greatest triumphs, like the Dumbarton Oaks Museum in Washington D.C. that I worked on with the owners. It was a real collaboration and there was no budget, no money involved. It was just, "If we like that better, we'll do it that way." So I had total freedom and it was a simple project to build a little museum, and the owner and I worked together and it was pure delight from beginning to end and it came out very well.
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You've designed buildings from the Glass House to the Crystal Cathedral to the AT&T building. Is there a difference between designing a house and designing a skyscraper?

Philip Johnson: It's more difficult. Because every decision you make makes such an enormous percentage difference in the looks. If you get a good plan on a skyscraper, you've got to get somebody's computer -- not mine -- and click it through and it reproduces all the plans all the way up to the hundredth floor. So you have a few basic decisions and then the battles begin. Because if you get into that kind of money everybody has something to say and everybody knows better than the architect. Every kind of consumer becomes a part of the business. You never know what's going to open up next to stop your design. AT&T! The battles! It's lucky it came out as well as it did.

There certainly was controversy with that.

That's peculiar, isn't it, because there's nothing very strange about the building, do you think? I shouldn't be asking you. It looks pretty ordinary to me. I put a funny top on it. But not funny, people call it the Chippendale top. I didn't know about Chippendale at the time. I see now what people mean, but I didn't know. It was just a way to end the building that people would notice and would decorate the building so you'd know it from other buildings, with a cut-off, like that. You don't miss the building if you never see the top, but that's natural to make a building be seen. The Chrysler building -- wonderful top. They spent all their time on the top. There's no middle, just dull windows. But with a top like that, that's going to be a monument for all of history. So I though I'd like an interesting top. Boy, my friends in the company weren't as pleased as I was, but we got it. They wanted a new way of looking at the world. I said, "Well this is different," so we built it. Seagram's was just the opposite. Mies had the confidence of the owners and he built it and, it was their idea, to build it in bronze. I mean, there cannot be anything more expensive in the world than bronze. You notice it's the only one, but they said, "Fine. If it's the finest material, let's use the finest material." So that of course was a very pleasant job.
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What do you have to take into account when you're designing a building? Aesthetics? Function?

Philip Johnson: Yes. That's a very good question, because there are certain things that you damn well have to take into consideration and more people should. It was hard for all of us, but without that, you can't go onto the creativity of a structure. You've got to know what stands up in present-day technology and what doesn't, or your fantasies will be fairy stories and not designs for buildings. Another thing you have to know is function. Modern architecture was founded in functionalism as a goal and, as much as I fight that as the only goal, it became the only goal, and that's bad too.

The only goal is building a beautiful building, but if you don't know your functions, if the Seagram building didn't work and make piles of money for everybody, it wouldn't be a success because all skyscrapers are money-making machines. So a function of the building, what would rent the best, is always on your mind. You can say, "Oh it's just commercialism," but that commercialism is our non-religion. It's our custom of the day and that's what our period's all about: consumerism and business. The business of America is business, somebody said and, strange as that sounds, that's what it is. So you damn well have to be functional in all your work, even a church. You can't ignore function. I love to do churches because, of course, there is the spatial feeling of God that you have going for you that's a little more interesting function than the layers of office cubicles.
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You have to know those things. You have to know structure, and you spend nine-tenths of your time on that. You say you know structure, but do you know connections? What happens when the water gets in that little place? Only years and years of experience... but that's nothing to do with the art. You've got to know all of that before you start. Painters have it easy; they've got to know what kinds of pigments will last. They don't know that even sometimes, but even that's not necessary. You repair a picture if it's bad, but in architecture, it falls down. That's a sociological crux. Then you've got the permits and things to go through with city hall that drive you up your wall. Then you have the clients. The care and feeding of clients is really one of the main obstacles, because you always have a client with some preconceived idea of what a house looks like, and all you want him to do is leave a check and go to Europe for a couple of years. Or leave two checks. But alas, life isn't simple. If it were, more people would be better architects.
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You said "You cannot not know history." What did you mean by that?

Philip Johnson: We were in a period in the early '50s or '40s that thought the whole thing could be solved by technological means. Science will take care of everything and no input of cultural history was of any importance. I never believed it and I still don't. So I claim that you've got to have a feel for the history of architecture. I started out as an historian, so probably I was just pushing my own interest. I felt that you can't not know it because it's there all the time, it's around you anyhow. If you ignore it, then you're denying the very input your buildings have to have. So you can't not know it. It's a good remark. I plastered it on the wall at Yale when I taught there.

You've been described as the most influential American architect in this century and as an enfant terrible. Which description fits you best?

Enfant terrible. I'm not the greatest influence at all, but I am nasty. I have a very bad reputation for always saying tactless remarks that are much better not being said. I really don't understand that. To me, I just tell the whole truth, but perhaps that isn't the right thing to do at that moment. But, I'm still here. If you can prove to me that that's hurt my career terribly, then I'd take it more seriously. But in spite of the horrible mistakes I've made in my life, well, I suppose some of them were inevitable, but you didn't have to be such a damn fool, Johnson. Still, I'm here. I enjoy being an enfant terrible, although I'm pretty old to be an enfant.
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What was the worst mistake you ever made?

My worst mistake was going to Germany and liking Hitler too much. I mean, how could you? It's just so unbelievably stupid and asinine and plain wrong, morally and every other way. I just don't know how I could have been carried away. It's like being carried away by a religious revival or something that enables you to cut people's heads off in the next county because they live in the next county. That's not good either. But that I should be psychologically so inept as to be swept along in something so horrible, it really wonders you. How could you? I never found a reason, I never found an excuse, and all I can say is how much I regret it because the racial part of is the worst. I can understand social fascism as done in Italy before Mussolini met Hitler, because that was, "If the trains run on time, let's not do it the communist way, let's do it our way." That made some sense and that's what I was doing here in America. But to be caught up in the racial thing was unbelievable, because like everyone else in the intellectual world, nine-tenths of the people I know are Jewish and the outrageousness of that kind of thing that could happen in a world and I didn't know it?! Where the hell was I?! A Harvard graduate! So much for Harvard! I was just stupid. Just unforgivable. That's the worst thing I ever did.
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You've taken your turn as a critic and certainly as the object of criticism. How do you handle criticism?

Philip Johnson: You try to develop a very thick skin. Hard to do. It hurts always. How could they misunderstand me so much?

Do you have any thoughts about the role of the architect in society?

Philip Johnson: I think it's marginal. I don't think it should be marginal. I think it's very important. I think it can influence the world. It can make you a better person if you're surrounded by good architecture, but the world doesn't seem to listen too much to that. They still create cities like Tokyo or Istanbul. Horrible places.

What is architecture's role?

Philip Johnson: Inspiration, like music. History, like music and painting, used to be called ennobling, but we don't care much about ennoblement anymore. What is it? It makes you feel much better. To be in the presence of a great work of architecture is such a satisfaction that you can go hungry for days. To create a feeling such as mine in Chartres Cathedral when I was 13 is the aim of architecture.

If a young person asked for advice about becoming an architect, what would you say?

Philip Johnson: I'd say, "Don't."

I'm not an example for anybody. What to do?

Work at the apprentice system and travel a great deal to absorb the cultures of the world, of the past. You can add a few more to the ones that I had, is the East. The Near East I have learned a great deal about, but not the Far East. That should be included. I don't know how you do this. I don't know how you beg, borrow or steal - even that's all right to me - money to do this kind of fumbling around the world. That's very important, so you can get a feel for the way people actually live. And, you've got to be unfortunately, a salesman. How do you learn salesmanship? It's kind of hard.
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How much is inspiration, how much perspiration?

Philip Johnson: About 99 percent is perspiration. Anybody can answer that.

Any doubts about your ability?

Philip Johnson: Oh goodness yes. I'm thoroughly discouraged right now. But that goes with the territory. You see better people around you all the time. Not to be envious and not to take that out in bitterness is a hard lesson, but you'd better, because you can't always be Frank Lloyd Wright. You've got to learn to live in this world just as you live in it. You've got to stand it.

Which awards mean the most to you?

Philip Johnson: None of them mean much. They really don't. What meant something to me is things like this: I was in Europe the other day and I picked up a wonderful new job. That's the reward of being famous. All the fame and publicity and all that seem to increase, and I don't know why, but it's very pleasant if it brings me another great challenge. With that, the next challenge, I can enjoy every single day of my life.

Anything you haven't done that you want to do?

Philip Johnson: Yes, I've always wanted to do one thing, but I knew it wasn't going to happen. So it stays as the dream: to build a city. Cities just grow like Topsy. Look at us here. Total disaster. Doesn't have to be. And I'm very sorry about that.

What's your dream city like?

Philip Johnson: It's all mixed up like Paris and Athens and few other places. I haven't let myself because I worked on some town plans and things that I thought were going to happen and were very disappointing. It's not in the cards these days, so I'm very satisfied by getting this little job in Europe. A few museums and schools that I'm doing. Wonderful time. And I'm doing a church. Very, very small, very unimportant, but very interesting.

Were there any books that influenced you as a young person?

Philip Johnson: Yes indeed, a great many. I got passionate about Nietzsche and Plato. I remember discovering Plato. That was my first love, and then Nietzsche, and I treasure them still in my bookcases. Later on, I became interested in architectural history and my passion in politics. Isaiah Berlin was, to me, the greatest theorist. It's books that really keep the mind filled. Another thing we should advise young people is to read. Read, read, read. If nothing catches your spirit, that's too bad. I must admit that the passion roused by a Plato can have no second. Not even poetry.

Why Plato?

Philip Johnson: He was such a great writer. He wrote the most beautiful prose and beautifully inspiring ideas. It sounds silly to use ordinary words when you get a genius like Plato, but he could think his way around all the plots and describe people and their characters at the same time. He created Socrates. Socrates was an unknown person, but he was made alive by this man's creativity. Now, I do not understand the finer points of Plato. It gets me down, but the comedies, the shorter dialogues can keep you going for a long, long time. Later, I turned on Plato, but that's a long story.

What reached you about Plato?

Philip Johnson: In a way it's like reading the Bible. It becomes so much part of your way of looking at the world that you don't realize it. I just felt moved, let's say, by reading Plato and, I confess, didn't understand it, but he seemed a wise man, saying great things and saying them beautifully. Poor Aristotle was short-changed because he was a lousy writer.

What about detective novels?

Philip Johnson: I read them as President Wilson did, if you please. Detective novels to keep me from committing suicide. They're wonderful relaxation; much better than television. But I only like the American kind and I read all of them five or six times.

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